I was excommunicated from the LDS church in 2015 or thereabouts. The evening after the trial, I wrote my
best attempt at recalling the questions I was asked and the answers I provided.
Q: I know we can know of Christ powerfully through the witness of the Holy Ghost. Don’t you think that a testimony through the Holy Ghost is stronger than an eye witness? Your eyes can be deceived, but a witness of the Holy Ghost is sure. Don’t you think it is possible that you were deceived in your experiences?
One exchange that occurred that I thought was of note: I declared that I had not apostatized from Christ or from the gospel. A high councilor said, "none of us think that you have. You are here for apostasy against the church and its leaders." Possibly the most condemnatory thing that occurred last night was that a group of 15 church leaders agreed that one can be cut off, so they suppose, from God's blessings without having done anything to offend him.
"And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;" (2 Nephi 28: 5)
Q: Do you believe that Thomas Monson is the sole mouthpiece
of the Lord on the earth today, and if the Lord wants to speak to the world, he
will do so through President Monson?
A: I believe the Lord can and does speak through whomever he
chooses. I do not believe he will only speak through President Monson, and I
certainly do not believe that everything President Monson says or does
qualifies as God’s word or approved by God. Any who believe that are guilty of idolatry.
You would be hard pressed to find a more textbook definition of the word.
Q: Do you believe President Monson is a prophet?
A: What do you mean by prophet? If you mean a title, I think
he has the right to adopt any title he wants, whether it be prophet or grand
dragon or whatever else, but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. If you
mean a description, I have yet to see a prophecy spoken by President Monson. I
have yet to hear any message from him that he has claimed was spoken to him by
God. Therefore, if I were to testify that I knew he was a prophet, I would be
bearing false witness, because I have not witnessed him prophesy.
Q: Do you believe that the church possesses a fullness of
the priesthood?
A: Let’s look at God’s own word on the subject. Turn with me
to JST Gen 14 [only 1 or 2 did]. When it says God swore an oath that EVERY man
would do these things, do you think he meant it? [I read the passage.] Of all
the men that you know who claim to hold the Melchezidek priesthood, how many
have put to flight armies, turned rivers from their course, quenched the
violence of fire, stood in the presence of God, etc? As of today you know at
least one who has stood in the presence of God. But other than me, who do you
know who has experienced even one of these powers, let alone all of them?
Obviously we are missing something. God has spoken about the church’s status
three times I think in the scriptures. Each of the three times, it is negative,
with words like “condemn” and “lost”. God said he took it away. If you think we
have it, how do you prove that it has changed since God last spoke about it?
Q: Do you believe the church is run the same way as it would
be if Christ himself were here to run it?
A: Absolutely not. I think it is silly to think that any of
us as individuals are living our lives exactly the way Christ would live our
lives. It is even sillier to think that a task so hard for an individual would
somehow be easier when attempted by a larger group of people, whether 15 or 15
million. I don’t know how anyone could honestly think that.
Q: This all seems dark to me. I am fine with helping people
come to Christ, but can’t that be done without so much negativity? Can’t we
talk of Christ, rejoice of Christ, etc. without criticizing others?
A: Joseph Smith said that the present generation would
reject Jesus for being too rough. Helaman 15:7 and the entire canon of
scripture is clear: You cannot preach the gospel without teaching against false
traditions. There is a reason there is no power in our repetitive lessons to
bring about changes in hearts. There is a reason the church is full of porn
addicts and child molesters. If all you ever do is talk about the pleasant
things that we are already doing—or think we are doing—no one ever actually
comes to Christ. You can’t honestly tell me you’ve read the Old Testament, New
Testament, or restoration scriptures and not seen that the majority of examples
of true messengers preaching God’s word has been “negative”. It is to be
expected. It is not an exception. Cognitive dissonance is not God saying what
we are hearing is false. It is our conscience saying what we believe disagrees
with the evidence we’ve seen.
Q: I know we can know of Christ powerfully through the witness of the Holy Ghost. Don’t you think that a testimony through the Holy Ghost is stronger than an eye witness? Your eyes can be deceived, but a witness of the Holy Ghost is sure. Don’t you think it is possible that you were deceived in your experiences?
A: I absolutely think it is possible that I was deceived. It
is very unlikely, and I have enough confidence in my experiences that I would
not change course even if I were tortured to death. However, I recognize that
anyone who says they are absolutely sure about anything is cutting themselves
off from God teaching them something that they don’t already know, and I won’t
do that, because I know nothing compared to God, and I want him to keep
teaching me. As far as an eye witness versus a witness of the Spirit: I agree
with you that one can certainly know of Christ with incredible surety through
the Holy Ghost. But you can’t know him. Eternal life is to know Jesus Christ, and
you can’t do that without actually meeting him face to face. Anyone who says a
witness of the spirit is stronger than an eye witness has never stood in the
presence of God, period.
Q: [Quoting from a blog post]: You wrote “So what of the
appointed watchmen in the LDS church?
9 All you wild beasts, you animals of the forest,
come and devour!
10 Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware;all of
them are but dumb watchdogs unable to bark,
lolling seers fond of slumber.
11 Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable,
such indeed are insensible shepherds.
They are all diverted to their own way,
every one after his own advantage.
12 Come, they say, let us get wine
and have our fill of liquor.
For tomorrow will be like today, only far better! (Isaiah
56:9-12)
Not only are they not warning, Isaiah reduces them to dogs.
It is not only that they choose not to bark, but they are so ignorant of things
as they really are, that they are completely blind and unaware of what is
actually important, relevant, and timely. Instead, they take their own advice
as if it were God's word, they feed on the poor, and keep up their drunken
stupor fed by false tradition and hubris. All is well, all is well.” How is
this not what the handbook describes as apostasy?
A: What I have written was, is, and will be true. You want a
prophecy, here’s a prophecy: Most of you in this room will live to see the
interpretation I have provided here fulfilled. You will see what Isaiah
predicted, and you will know that you didn’t hear a peep from these men you
call prophets warning you of it coming.
After deliberation, the stake president informed me that the
decision of the council was that I would be excommunicated for apostasy. He determined that a brief prayer and a negative feeling “as
close to an audible voice as he ever felt in prayer” was sufficient to convict
me without even attempting to refute even one of the 400+ pages of scriptural
and historical evidence I provided to support my position, a feat that required
thousands of hours of careful effort.
One exchange that occurred that I thought was of note: I declared that I had not apostatized from Christ or from the gospel. A high councilor said, "none of us think that you have. You are here for apostasy against the church and its leaders." Possibly the most condemnatory thing that occurred last night was that a group of 15 church leaders agreed that one can be cut off, so they suppose, from God's blessings without having done anything to offend him.
"And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;" (2 Nephi 28: 5)
I forgive these men totally and sincerely. I have forgiven
them since I was told a year or so ago that this would be the outcome of this mission
which I have fulfilled. I harbor no ill will towards them.
I did, however, refuse to remain in the room after the announcement of their decision. I announced that I had nothing more to say to them, nor them to me, and exited before their prayer. I said: "I refuse to participate in solemn mockery before God."
I did, however, refuse to remain in the room after the announcement of their decision. I announced that I had nothing more to say to them, nor them to me, and exited before their prayer. I said: "I refuse to participate in solemn mockery before God."